board77

I love the directness of that statement, halplm. As Voronwe pointed out to me, there are so many possibilities that would be acceptable. I'm sorry you seem to be so exasperated right now.

Wampuscat wrote:

That's like calling a building a church when actually the church is the community that meets there.

Well, the word church describes both the building and the community of people. The building is important because it's the place the community comes together. That doesn't mean individual members of the community don't come together elsewhere, but the church (building) is the one place all the members of the church (community) identify as their central home. Same with b77. The messageboard (building) is the place where all the community members come together, though some may be getting together elsewhere, too.

I don't see the difficulty with that, laureanna. The messageboard is the central meeting place for the community. It is the central point of shared identity for all of us. As you said, the community has gone out from the central point of the messageboard and cultivated personal real-life friendships, but the messageboard is the one thing we all have in common. It is what defined the community from which individual relationships have developed. It isn't the case that the individual relationships from around the world came together and defined the messageboard, which is what I think your phrase describes.

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I agree, but the only product we have ever had, besides ourselves, is Tolkien. The fact is Tolkien is what brought us all together, and look at the people who were attracted by him. The finest sort, imo. That’s why I think it makes sense to include his name in the mission statement - not because only Tolkien fans are welcome, or Tolkien is the main topic of discussion, but because the very name draws the sort of people we want to attract.

Tinwe has said everything I wanted to say. We (I) want to attract people who are affected by Tolkien's world. This, to me, is the most important factor of any mission statement developed. Mention democracy if you will ... just how much import any potential new non-TORC member will give to our methods of governance is open to speculation. All I know is that I didn't care one way or the other when I discovered TORC. All I cared about was the quality of discourse. Heck, I didn't even bother to read TORC's vision statement for many months. All I knew and cared about was the qualitative posts made by intelligent people.

I've read the entire Jury Room thread on this subject. I think that perhaps the committee members are in danger of loosing sight of the forest for the trees.

We need to keep it simple ... We are a self-governing community drawn together in fellowship by a love of Tolkien and good conversation.

Well Sassy see that is the thing.
It has been expressed here by some (many? a few?) that they did not want this place to resemble TORC, or be TORC as it should have been, or TORC II or whatever.
I have been reluctant to agree to anything that connected us with Tolkien or TORC for fear of alienating people. For some the movies are over and they have had their fill of discussing Tolkien for now. We have those people to consider as well.

But Holby, if those people were, or are still, on TORC despite not wishing to discuss Tolkien any more, they must not be very terrified of the name. I doubt that a mention here would drive them off.

Holbytla wrote:

Well Sassy see that is the thing.
It has been expressed here by some (many? a few?) that they did not want this place to resemble TORC, or be TORC as it should have been, or TORC II or whatever.

Holby, I don't necessarily think that we want TORC part deux. What I, and several others, if you read this thread, want is Tolkien discussion through the eyes of B77. The fact that we all came from TORC is not irrelevant but the fact that we all have a love of Tolkien's writing IS relevant. Someone a page or so back said that Tolkien is a foundation stone of our community. And so it is. And, IMO, should not be denied.

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I have been reluctant to agree to anything that connected us with Tolkien or TORC for fear of alienating people. For some the movies are over and they have had their fill of discussing Tolkien for now. We have those people to consider as well.

How are we to attract anyone to us if we don't have focus? Can you, or anyone else, suggest a focus that is representative of a common interest that has an equal, or stronger, appeal ... to the calibre of posters we are hoping to attract?

Holby, I have no wish to alienate anyone on this board but I also wish for my interest to be represented. I enjoy chatting, bantering, occasionally delving into symposium topics, but my primary reason for participating in this MB is the quality of critical thinking on all things Tolkien.

Why does the mission (I hate that word and its implication btw) statement
need to be one or the other?

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

... I still don't think we are going to be innundated with new (non-TORC) members when we open and I certainly don't think we will have a membership list numbering in the thousands ... ever.

Well, Sass, the compromise that we have sought is to present options, all of which contain Tolkien, but none of which contain Tolkien as the central object of the Board.

Although I would have jumped on your statement and hugged it to death ten pages ago, because it represents me perfectly, the fact is that it would alienate others, as Holby has said.

We are having a bit of a 'foo' in the committee right now over just this issue.

What we end up with will be a wee bit inflated as Mission Statements go, and it will contain some elements that a person loves and others that a person hates, but I think it will represent rather well the fact that as a group we hardly agree on anything.

Jn

Sass I totally agree that we need some definition. You are preaching to the choir here.
I also feel that Tolkien should be a subject here.
The question is whether it should be the prime focus I guess.
There are some that do not want it to be the prime focus.
And no I have no alternative.
Before Ted performed euthanasia on m00bies (I am being dramatic for effect here) it was sort of dying a slow death. Books was really slow as well. Do we need more of a "chair" to keep people interested in this place I guess is what I am asking.
I am not worried about the potential posters. I am worried about keeping our current posters.
We do need some kind of direction, I am just not sure what that is or how to achieve it.

Prim certainly nobody is terrified of the name Tolkien. Nor do I think anyone opposes discussion of Tolkien.
However, as was pointed out to me, words mean something to people. And words can be representitive of an ideal, philosophy or direction.
If these things are just names why were they considered so significant to warrant a few votes? Aren't they really representitive of a direction?
If that is the will of the board then fine. If nobody has any alternatives, then fine as well. I just wasn't sure that the members here had any kind of chance to have an input in our direction or lack thereof.

Jny I hear you loud and clear. So is it best to have some people happy and some pissed, or have everyone a little pissed?
My definition of democracy is 49% of the people pissed off.

Sassy

I just wanted to say that your statement perfectly expresses what the truth of b77 is for me personally.

Holby wrote:

For some the movies are over and they have had their fill of discussing Tolkien for now. We have those people to consider as well.

Hmmmmmm.......I don't know if you meant it that way, but it sounds as if you're equating discussing Tolkien with analyzing the movies. Sure the Turf and Symposium threads have little, if nothing, to do with anything remotely resembling Middle-earth. But look at those avatars next to all that philosophical discussion and light-hearted chat............most of the names are directly from the works of Tolkien or can at least be considered "Tolkienesque" in nature.

I know, I know.......it was a prerequisite to join here with our TORC names (or at least recognizable versions of those names), but I wonder, if given the chance, how many of us would change them. That might be an interesting question to pose one day, no?. I also wonder if, when we open, we'll be seeing names like i*want*orlandos*babeez beside posts discussing the issue of global warming (to randomly pick a topic from the Symposium). Seems highly unlikely, doesn't it? The "movie-side" to Tolkien doesn't seem to be the one with which most (if any) here have found the deepest affinity, and we are not, thank God, considering the importance of including the name "Jackson" in the Mission Statement.

"The Hall of Fire" and "Made In Dale", pretty much the entire scope of "There And Back Again", references to "m77ts", and even our banner of "The Last Homely Site on the Web", all speak of some kind of connection to Tolkien. It's part of our foundation.........not the foundation itself, but still an integral component of its structure. As I said in my post yesterday, it will be herethat I'll seek to discuss various elements of Tolkien's works that have long intrigued me, because it is here that so many knowledgeable and articulate people share that interest.

From what I can see, none of the Mission Statement versions that are now being considered place "Tolkien fandom" as the primary definer (is that even a word?) of our purpose here. I really can't understand how the simple acknowledgement of a shared interest (even if for some that interest is now fading into the past) could be considered divisive or exclusive. And as for newcomers to the board, well, if this is indeed a community, then, like all communities, it will adjust and evolve accordingly, and the individuals within it will decide whether or not to remain, and whether or not to advocate for new directions and purposes.

And BTW, Holby-dear, thank-you for stirring the pot, so to speak, and trying your damnedest to get people to speak up. You really are the most {{{sm0000ch}}}}able hobbit at times. (please note gratuitous use of Tolkien-reference here )

Oh...........and another thing...................is that fabulous babe in your sig really wearing all that finery, or is it actually body paint?

Added: Oops! It looks as if this post is a little redundant, but I left it ages ago to tend to the bedlam ensuing in various parts of our house and property due to my son's birthday party. I just managed to stop a potato cannon attack on a sailboat moored in the cove.

Holbytla wrote:

I also feel that Tolkien should be a subject here.
The question is whether it should be the prime focus I guess.
There are some that do not want it to be the prime focus.
And no I have no alternative.

Aye, there's the rub.

What is the primary objection to a Tolkien focus in our statement?
That the films are over? That we have moved on? Moved on to what?
An amorphous board-wide chat group? What?

What are the alternatives?
No, really. I'd like to know.
Perhaps I have missed the comments of those members who will feel alienated by a Tolkien focus.
Perhaps I have only paid attention to posters who, in some form or other, agree with me that Tolkien brought us together on TORC and a continuing interest in Tolkien is responsible in some part for keeping us together.

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I am not worried about the potential posters. I am worried about keeping our current posters.
We do need some kind of direction, I am just not sure what that is or how to achieve it.

Exactly! And neither, it seems, does anyone else.
So where does that leave us?
Drifting ...
.
.
.

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My definition of democracy is 49% of the people pissed off.

Cerin Thank you. That makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Sassafras wrote:

We are a self-governing community drawn together in fellowship by a love of Tolkien and good conversation.

That's my favorite one yet.

I'm getting weary of this debate and heading out out of town, but I'd be supremely happy with that as our mission/identifying statement.

Wampuscat wrote:

Sassafras wrote:

We are a self-governing community drawn together in fellowship by a love of Tolkien and good conversation.

That's my favorite one yet.

I'm getting weary of this debate and heading out out of town, but I'd be supremely happy with that as our mission/identifying statement.

Ditto. I think it's just right. Clear, concise, simple, and really (to my mind) says who we are.

I don't see why we should worry about alienating anyone. Tolkien is part of who we are. People don't have to discuss the movies or the books or anything. . . but I think it's important that it's in there somewhere.

I just want to make it perfectly clear that my one and only objective was to lay all of the cards on the table. There is nothing worse or more divisive than something left unsaid. As painful as it is to talk about these things, it is far worse to let them fester.

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Hmmmmmm.......I don't know if you meant it that way, but it sounds as if you're equating discussing Tolkien with analyzing the movies.

No I didn't mean it that way. If there is anyone that knows I can't write worth a damn it is you (and Prim).
Way back in '96 when I first had an internet connection, one of the first things I searched for was Tolkien sites. I obviously loved his works and wanted to "delve deeper" if I could.
However regardless of my love, Tolkien and his works were for all intents and purposes, a finite issue. Meaning he was dead and was not currently writing anything new. I read what I could though. Still for me it wasn't a bottomless pit of info. I am in no way a scholar lest it be rock and roll or a pretty face.
Then the movie talk came along. That changed everything. Surely I was as much of an expert on Tolkien as the next guy/gal. Well I was dead wrong about that, but still there was loads of new things to discuss.
A whole new world opened up.
Four days or so from now will be my 5th anniversary of joining TORC. I spent some years pre-movies discussing what may be, and some years post movies discussing what was.
Well for better or worse that aspect is over with. Like Tolkien, there is no more new material regarding the movies. Again I am at a point where unless I turn to some scholarly interests in Tolkien, the road is coming to an end.
Sure there will always be some interest for me, but certainly not enough to keep me as entertained as I had been. I have reached some sort of end. Or maybe stasis is a better word, but after guzzling beer there is no way I can work that into a coherent sentence. How many here are going to take the Tolkien scholar route? How much board wide interest is there?
Anyway, so what is next?
Well on TORC in the last year or so of my existence there I found sort of a new niche. I started meeting new people. Some incredible people. People that have changed my life forever. That isn't just flowery prose, that is a fact.
I kind of took the same attitude or appraoch here. I am still amazed at the incredible people I run across.
One of the most endearing aspects of this board for me is the meshing of the once sundered people. I truly enjoy the fact that I can now post with former RP'ers, Manweites , etc. It has been great!
This is more than enough to sustain me. However is that and the Tolkien discourse enough to sustain this board? Is that what people here want?
That is my question.
Do we have enough direction? Is there enough interest to sustain a viable messageboard? Is the topic going to turn too many people off?

I sometimes lurk on a site called Kevin's Watch. It is a site related to the works of Stephen R Donaldson, writer of The Thomas Covenent Chronicles. He has been writing this story for 30 years or so, and is now attempting to complete it. There is also talk of a potential movie in the future. This place is a breeding ground much like TORC was. This place will take off big time if the movies are ever made.
There are more than 1300 posters and a quarter million articles there. The place is as quiet as a church mouse.
What is sustaining it is the new books coming out and the potential movies. What is going to sustain the interest here?
Tolkien will always be a matter of some import. Is it enough matter?
Does it really matter?
Again I am already fulfilled. For now.
Will it last? Is there an alternative? Is this direction ok with the people here? Is it indeed a direction?
Well 'Beth sweetheart, I guess that is what I was trying to say.
You should know better than to give me an opening.
Luv ya baby.

Ok, just a further comment on Tolkien, as I think I've made my opinnion on "mission statements" clear.

I am all for Tolkien, and any discussion surrounding Tolkien... and I think what brought this group together has something to do with Tolkien. However... I do NOT think that how this group moves forward has ANYTHING to do with Tolkien. If it did, we would have a very different set of "rules" or "guidlines" and we wouldn't have near the freedom that we do.

I think this community has moved beyond Tolkien, and while I think it would be appropriate to acknowledge Tolkien in our historical discription, I don't think it applies to where this community is going.

Athrabeth wrote:

Sure the Turf and Symposium threads have little, if nothing, to do with anything remotely resembling Middle-earth.

The Turf is a little pub in a cozy back alley of Oxford and not too far away from where Tolkien taught and lived, so it's still a bit Tolkienesque.

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If it did, we would have a very different set of "rules" or "guidlines" and we wouldn't have near the freedom that we do.

True. If we were really centered around Tolkien, then we'd probably have stricter rules to go along with what he believed was right. I don't think we center around Tolkien though. We're just acknowledging that this is our common thread, what has brought us together, and has changed many of our lives.

There are a lot of people here still interested in Tolkien, who would like to meet other people still interested in Tolkien. Since no other definable common interest has been put forward, I don't see anything wrong with continuing to mention Tolkien.

You're right, Holby, that other directions will emerge. But they'll emerge. We can't define them now because we don't know what they are. I submit that none of the proposed mission statements limits us from becoming anything we end up wanting to become. But we can't, right now, here, say, "We don't know what we want to be" and attract any interest at all.

Instead we're saying, "Lots of people here like Tolkien." That is true. We're not saying "We can only discuss Tolkien" or "If you don't care about Tolkien, get lost"; we're saying, "Lots of people here like Tolkien." Someone with a passionate dislike of Tolkien might run away screaming, but such a person would probably hate it here. Someone who doesn't care about Tolkien will probably be indifferent to the mention of his name. So no harm done.

In the meantime, though, we might attract some new people who do still want to discuss Tolkien, and a fairly large chunk of this board will be happy.

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If it did, we would have a very different set of "rules" or "guidlines" and we wouldn't have near the freedom that we do.

I couldn't let this pass without commenting on it. I think Tolkien was all for having less rules, not more. After all he did say:

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My political opinions lean more and more to Anarchy (philosophically understood, meaning abolition of control not whiskered men with bombs)

At the end of the day yes, Tolkien brought us together. It is part of the description of the current members.

What you need to ask yourselves, is whether having that commonality of Tolkien is part of the mission. Ie, is that where you want this board to be in the future.

I would say no.

Steve, I would say 'yes'. Not only has a love of Tolkien's work brought us together, there is a significant portion of the membership that is still interested in dicussing issues related to Tolkien, as my dear friend Athrabeth points out with her usual aplomb. But I equally think that is inappropriate to overemphasize Tolkien in the Mission Statement. Even though I don't personally participate in the There and Back forum, and only a relatively small percentage of our members do, I think it is equally important to include something about creative collaborations in the mission statement, since that is such an important part of the board is about for some people. I also think that it is important to reflect just as diverse our community is, not to mention how wide-ranging our interests are.

TheLidlessEyes wrote:

What you need to ask yourselves, is whether having that commonality of Tolkien is part of the mission. Ie, is that where you want this board to be in the future.

I would say no.

I would say yes, for one simple reason. There is something about Tolkien that attracts the very best kind of people. Just look around you.

I rest my case.