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From my post in the TORC thread:

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Miriel: To me it reads as though she effectively commits suicide. She was too weary to even cry! When Finwe exhorts her to remain she says for
strength that would have nourished the life of many has gone forth into
Feanor.
Can it be said to be only accidental, a rare genetic configuration if you will, that caused Feanor's life force to be so potent that his mother is consumed by it?

Having just reread this chapter, I am again astounded by Miriel deliberatelty choosing to die after giving birth to Feanor. In Letter 212, Tolkien says,
In the Elvish legends there is a record of a strange case of an Elf (Miriel mother of Feanor) that tried to die, which had disasterous results, leading to the 'Fall' of the High Elves. <snip> But Miriel wished to abandon being, and refused rebirth
He goes on to differentiate between this Myth and Christian Mythology by stating that in the latter, evil is brought in from the outside, whilst in the former, ... the rebellion of created free-will precedes creation of the World (Ea); and Ea has in it, subcreatively introduced, evil, rebellions, discordant elements of its own nature already when the Let it Be was spoken.

This final sentence is what rivets my attention ... The Fall or corruption,
therefore, of all things in it, and all inhabitants of it, was a possibility, if not
inevitable.

I have not read Morgoth's Ring so I don't know what Voronwe is alluding to when he says that this work clarifies and makes comprehensible the reasons for Miriel choosing to abandon life. Although it certainly reads very much like suicide to me as it is written in the Sil. The fact that Tolkien himself affirms that her death is the the primary step leading to the downfall of the Noldor ( for want of a nail the shoe was lost sort of chain of events) gives me pause and causes me to wonder if there were other forces at work as well. Not so much Melkor directly perhaps, but rather the evil that is now intrinsic to Arda. A diffused and undifferentiated evil, if you will.

My next question (yes, I know, I am full of questions ) is how does Miriel's death impact Feanor? Could her influence have changed his course? Is that why she had to die? So that Feanor could mature unmolested by compassion and become 'who he was born to be'?

V., could you share a passage or two that illuminates Miriel's choice?

Ath, you see Manwe's inability to see into the heart of Melkor as the faith of a true innocent and a pure heart. Mt view is more cynical, I see it as dangerous naivete.

Sassy the Insatiable wrote:

My next question (yes, I know, I am full of questions ) is how does Miriel's death impact Feanor? Could her influence have changed his course? Is that why she had to die? So that Feanor could mature unmolested by compassion and become 'who he was born to be'?

That's more then one question, Sassy my dear. All good questions, though. It is not unreasonable to suppose that there is a connection between Feanor's growing up without a mother and his unreasonably stubborn, even harsh outlook. I do think her influence could have changed his course. As for whether she "had to die" for him to become "who he was born to be" that is more problematic. Who is to say that "who he was born to be" was not a greater person who combined his skill and will with a more appropriate dose of softer traits like empathy, compassion and tolerance. Perhaps her death kept him from becoming "who he was born to be".

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V., could you share a passage or two that illuminates Miriel's choice?

My initial reaction is to say that you need to read the whole thing to get much out of it. But when I am home and have enough time, I'll look through the text and see if there anything that I think would be both short enough to be quotable but also useful as a stand-alone.

After reviewing the text, I would rephrase my statement from "illuminates Miriel's choice" to "illuminating the reasons for Miriel's fate". I also confirmed that there is no section that is short enough for me to reasonably quote. There is a long debate among the Valar as part of the "Of the Severance of Marriage" part of the essay (pp. 239-250 in my hardcover version) which both greatly illuminates the reasons why Miriel suffered the fate she did and express some of Tolkien's deepest thoughts about the marring of Arda and its effect on Arda's denizens, and about Healing, and Pity and Justice. I have tried to pull out some small samples, but they simply don't make sense without the whole. Manwe speaks first, then Aule, Ulmo, Yavanna, Nienna, Ulmo again, and then Vaire, in whose care the fea (spirit) of Miriel dwelt, spoke. After a long silence, Manwe spoke again, and then called for Mandos to give judgment. I cannot summarize that debate and even remotely do it justice.

But here is a part of the story that is not even hinted at in the published Silmarillion and helps to answer some of Sassy's questions. After the debate Nienna prays to Mandos to allow Miriel's spirit to be reunited with her body:

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But Mandos was unmoved. And the body of Miriel lay at rest in Lorien, until the escape of Melkor the Marrer and the Darkening of Valinor. In that evil time Finwe was slain by the Marrer himself, and his body was burned as by lightning stroke and was destroyed. Then Miriel and Finwe met again ["you and I will meet again"]in Mandos, and lo! Miriel was glad of the meeting, and her sadness was lightened; and the will in which she had been set was released.

And when she learned of Finwe all that had befallen since her departure (for she had given no heed to it nor asked tidings, until then) she was greatly moved; and she said to Finwe in her thought: 'I erred in leaving thee and our son, or at the least in not soon returning after brief repose; for had I done so he might have grown wiser. But the children of Indis shall redress his errors and therefore I am glad that they should have being, and Indis hath my love. How should I bear grudge against one who received what I rejected and cherished what I abandoned. Would that I might set all the Tale of our people and of thee and thy children in a tapestry of many colours, as a memorial brighter then meemory! For though I am cut off now from the world, and I accept that Deeom as just I would still watch and record all that befalls those dear to me, and their offspring also. I feel again the call of my body and its skills.

Then Finwe tells Mandos that he agrees not to return to be reunited with Indis, with whom he had long been separated from after he joined Feanor in his exile, and Mandos then grants Nienna's prayer that Miriel's spirit be reunited with her body.

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Miriel was accepted by Vaire and became her chief handmaid; and all tidings of the Noldor down the years from their beginning were brought to her and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwe is at times permitted to look upon. And still she is at work, though her name has been changed.[/i]

Thanks for that Voronwe. Very interesting. I must confess to never having read all of HOME. I read the first 4 or 5 books but lost interest. With your guidance I may reconsider that.

Cheers,
Alatar

Sass wrote:

Ath, you see Manwe's inability to see into the heart of Melkor as the faith of a true innocent and a pure heart. My view is more cynical, I see it as dangerous naivete.

I guess I find it difficult to judge the Valar using the same standards that one would apply to the Children of Iluvatar (aka “us”), because they are just so damn "mythical" in their clearly singular and symbolic natures. I still think that within the constructed myth, Manwë’s "goodness" must be extreme enough to balance the evil of Melkor; his honesty and hope and love must be as sharply defined as a clear ray of light to stand out against the impenetrable darkness of his brother's webs of deception and despair and hatred. I think it’s a distinctly “pure version” of the mercy and pity shown to Gollum and Saruman and Wormtongue in LOTR, where the more prudent course of action would be to “deal out death in judgement”. As a far more sympathetic and identifiable character, Frodo’s forbearance of the wholly untrustworthy Gollum can also be seen as “dangerous naivite”, but I doubt that even the most cynical among us would call that a bad thing, knowing its ultimate outcome.

There’s actually a passage in Morgoth’s Ring which I think better explains the workings of Manwë’s thought:

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Therefore after a time Manwë gave him leave to go freely about the land. The evil that Melkor had wrought of old in wrath and malice was beyond full healing, but his aid, if he would truly give it, would do more than aught else to amend the world. For Melkor was in his beginning the greatest of the Powers, and Manwë believed that if he were repentant he would regain in great part his first might and wisdom. On this path he judged that Melkor was now set, and would persevere if he were treated without grudge. Jealousy and rancour Manwë was slow to perceive, for he knew them not in himself; and he did not understand that all love had departed from the mind of Melkor for ever.

For me, this seems closely akin to Gandalf’s offer of mercy to Saruman on the steps of Orthanc: “You can leave Orthanc, free – if you choose………..free from bond, of chain or command, to go where you will, even, even to Mordor, Saruman, if you desire.”
Good thing Saruman didn’t have the wherewithal to conceal his contempt and hatred, and put on the same mask of repentance that Melkor so expertly devised.

And dangerous naivete can work in many ways “unlooked for” in Tolkien’s world. Because all he can perceive are the workings of self-serving “wickedness”, because he cannot conceive of anyone, even among “the Wise”, rejecting the temptation of the Ring and seeking to destroy it instead, Sauron effectively lays the foundation for his own destruction.

Voronwe, I love the "the council of Manwë" scene from Morgoth's Ring. The more familiar Council of Elrond reflects something of its structure, especially when its members discuss the dilemma of what to do with the Ring, and perceive that its destruction will also mark the end of the Eldar's power in Middle-earth. It is with the same dawning realization of resigned sorrow that the Valar "perceived now more clearly how great was the hurt that Melkor of old had done to the substance of Arda, so that all those who were incarnate and drew sustenance of their bodies from Arda Marred, must ever be liable to grief, to do or to suffer things unnatural in Arda Unmarred. And this marring could not now be wholly undone, not even by Melkor repentant; for power had gone forth from him and could not be recalled, but would continue to work according to the will that had set it in motion.

The final words of Mandos are especially compelling:

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"It is our part to rule Arda and to counsel the Children, or to command them in things committed to our authority. Therefore it is our task to deal with Arda Marred, and to declare what is just within it. We may indeed in counsel point to a higher road, but we cannot compel any free creature to walk upon it. That leadeth to tyranny, which disfigureth good and make it seem hateful.

Healing by final Hope, as Manwë hath spoken of it, is a law which one can give to oneself only; of others justice alone can be demanded. A ruler who discerning justice refuseth to it the sanction of law, demanding abnegation and self-sacrifice, will not drive his subjects to these virtues, virtuous only if free, but by unnaturally making justice unlawful, will drive them rather to rebellion against all law. Not by such means will Arda be healed.

But after all this "doom and gloom", Mandos (like Elrond) does indeed end the council with words of great hope regarding the future of Arda:

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"Hearken now O Valar! To me foretelling is granted no less than doom, and I will proclaim now to you things both near and far. Behold! Indis the fair shall be made glad and fruitful, who might else have been solitary. For not in death only hath the Shadow entered into Aman with the coming of the Children destined to suffer; there are also sorrows, even if they be less. Long she hath loved Finwë, in patience and without bitterness. Aulë named Fëanor the greatest of the Eldar, and in potency that is true. But I say unto you that the children of Indis shall also be great, and the Tale of Arda more glorious because of their coming. And from them shall spring things so fair that no tears shall dim their beauty; in whose being the Valar, and the Kindreds of both Elves and Men that are to come shall all have a part, and in whose deeds they shall rejoice. So that, long hence when all that here is, and seemeth yet fair and impregnable, shall nonetheless have faded and passed away, the Light of Aman shall not wholly cease among the free peoples of Arda until the End."

Athrabeth wrote:

I guess I find it difficult to judge the Valar using the same standards that one would apply to the Children of Iluvatar (aka “us”), because they are just so damn "mythical" in their clearly singular and symbolic natures. I still think that within the constructed myth, Manwë’s "goodness" must be extreme enough to balance the evil of Melkor; his honesty and hope and love must be as sharply defined as a clear ray of light to stand out against the impenetrable darkness of his brother's webs of deception and despair and hatred. I think it’s a distinctly “pure version” of the mercy and pity shown to Gollum and Saruman and Wormtongue in LOTR, where the more prudent course of action would be to “deal out death in judgement”. As a far more sympathetic and identifiable character, Frodo’s forbearance of the wholly untrustworthy Gollum can also be seen as “dangerous naivite”, but I doubt that even the most cynical among us would call that a bad thing, knowing its ultimate outcome.

I agree with this 100% (big surprise there). I love the analogy between Manwe and Frodo; so far apart in the scale of power, and yet able to represent the same type of goodness.

As for the rest of your post:

Voronwe, Ath,

The more you two bring Morgoth's Ring into focus as it relates to the Sil, the more I realise just how truncated is Christopher's published version.


The section V. quoted on Miriel changes everything I first thought about the ramifications of her death. So, she has regret and seeks, by making the great tapestry, to compensate somehow.

<Why did he omit so much, I wonder?>

Ath quoted Jealousy and rancour Manwë was slow to perceive, for he knew them not in himself; and he did not understand that all love had departed from the mind of Melkor for ever.

Ah. I pounce on the word slow! So he will finally come to understand that Melkor is manifestly evil.

Reading your thoughts, I do understand a little better that the Valar are one dimensional archetypes. It's just that I find it hard not to judge them as I would any being ... celestial or demonic. Although this may well be a fault of my own lack of imagination. I suppose that I shall continue to view the (quasi) divine denizens of the Sil through my own peculiar perspectives.

That said ...

Can we move on to chapter 7? 'Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor'.

Sassy, thanks for your comments. To be fair to Christopher, he had an incredibly difficult decision to decide how to approach the publication of the Silmarillion, because so much was in flux. I also believe that this is probably the chapter in which some of the most signficant material is left out (along with the Wandering of Hurin). And to Christopher's credit, he labored very hard to get as much of his father's work available to those of us who are interested as possible. I am willing to forgive him much for achieving this great (and fairly unique) task.

I agree that it is time to move on. I just haven't had time to compose my thoughts about the next chapter. I will change the name of the thread, and hopefully get a chance to make some comments soon, but in the meanwhile if you are anyone else has anything to say about it, please forge forward.

Well Voronwe you have just convinced me to check out HOME. I did not know of all that stuff that happened with Miriel. That sheds a whole new light on everything. I do not think I really have anything to add to the chapter since I really just said Feanor was spoiled. Which I am still sticking to. It's all in the thread from the other place. The conversation here just answered the questions I had in the thread in the other place.

It's nice to know how great Miriel's works were.

Does anyone think by marrying Nerdanel, Feanor was looking for someone to balance out his personality?

This isn't specific to the chapter now under discussion, but I've had a sort of Eureka! moment in my puzzle of trying to come to grips with Melkor and the Valar.

You are all no doubt excruciatingly aware of my obduracy in thinking that Melkor's nature was pre-determined by Iluvatar and are probably sick to death of my harping on it ... but what if the Valar are essentially supposed to represent natural forces?

... and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the rainment of the world, and were lovely and glorious to see, and blissful, and the Earth was becomming as a garden for their delights ...

And so,
Manwe= air. Varda= stars. Ulmo= water. Aule= earth. Yavanna= growing things. Mandos (Namo)= Keeper of the houses of the Dead. Vaire= Weaver/ record keeper.

If I view the Valar in this light, then I can fit Melkor in as an embodiment of Shiva, (I would assume that Tolkien was familiar with Hindu mythology) rather than pre-destined absolute evil. And so, Melkor= the destroyer. In order for life to flourish there must be destruction else it all becomes static in its perfection.

Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I clutching at straws in my desire to make sense of Tolkien's mythology?

I thought Melkor was associated with Temperature in the begining, but you have a very interesting point

Bumpity!!!!

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If I view the Valar in this light, then I can fit Melkor in as an embodiment of Shiva, (I would assume that Tolkien was familiar with Hindu mythology) rather than pre-destined absolute evil. And so, Melkor= the destroyer. In order for life to flourish there must be destruction else it all becomes static in its perfection.

Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I clutching at straws in my desire to make sense of Tolkien's mythology?

Sass, I don't think Tolkien would put it that way, and I wouldn't necessarily explicitly make the connection to Shiva (particularly since I am not very well versed in Hindu mythology, but nonetheless that is fairly consistent with how I look at it.

Turning (finally) to the chapter at hand, one only need look at the title of the book to know that this is an important chapter. The volume labelled "The Silmarillion" is about much more then just the story of the Silmarils, of course; it encompasses the whole history of the Elder days from the creation of the World to the beginning of the third age. But obviously Tolkien attaches a particular importance to the Silmarils, since he explicitly wanted the book to be called The Silmarillion.

We learn from the title of the chapter Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor that these objects are potentially dangerous things, since the title clearly implies that they are connected to the unrest of the Noldor. And yet, at the very beginning of the chapter we also learn that the Silmarils "afterwards were most renowned of all the works of the Elves." Once again Tolkien shows a remarkable ability to express what I like to call the topsy-turvy nature of reality. What is up is down and what is down is up. The greatest work of the Elves led to their greatest misery, and yet still were renowned.

I find great mystery in this chapter, beginning with these words:

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As three great jewels they were in form. But not until the End, when Feanor shall return who perished ere the Sun was made, and sits now in the Halls of Awaiting and comes no more among his kin; not until the Sun passes and the Moon falls, shall it be known of what substance they were made. LIke the crystal of diamonds it appeared, and yet was more strong than adamant, so that no violence could mar it or break it within the Kingdom of Arda.

The more I think about this partial paragraph, the more remarkable it becomes to me. How can Feanor, a mere Child of Iluvator, even if the greatest of the Children of Iluvator, create a substance beyond the knowledge of even the Valar? A substance that is bound together so powerfully that it is beyond the strength of even the Valor to break? How can this be? Who is this Feanor really?

Tolkien goes on to point out that this remarakable crystal:

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was to the Silmarils but as is the body to the Children of Iluvator: the house of its inner fire, that is within it and yet all parts of it, and is its life. And the inner fire of the Silmarils made of the blended light of the Trees of Valinor, which lives in they yet, though the Trees have long withered and shine no more.

So the reason the Silmarils are so important is that they alone maintain the light of the Trees of Valinor. Okay, so that raises this oft asked and important question: what so damn special about the light of the Trees of Valinor. Light is light, is it not? Well, apparently not. There is something divine about the Light of the Trees. The Silmarils are repeatedly refered to as "holy jewels." What is it that Tolkien is trying to represent with this rather startling (and perhaps not quite logically sensical) concept?

One interesting thing to note is that in the very first page of this chapter, Tolkien reveals both that Feanor is going to die and that the Trees are going to be destroyed. We once again see Tolkien as the great amateur writer doing things that no professional would ever do. But of course, Tolkien is not even trying to write a commercially viable publication when he was composing the Silmarillion, unlike the LOTR.

That's all that I will say for now. I will leave the actual unrest of the Noldor, Melkor's duplicity, Feanor's stubborn pride (and that of Fingolfin as well!) for another time, or for another, more suitable, poster to describe. I think I've asked enough difficult questions for now.

I will go back and re -read the chapter.

I thought, that that this particular light was the light before the sun and the moon made by the Valar, untainted. Considering Arda is Marred, I am sure people would appreciate that!! It is special since quite a while later it does help Frodo and Sam.

I had never thought of it as the downfall of the Noldor though. I thought of the greed and pride that the some of the Noldor had, is what brought them down. Even if the Silmarils never existed do you think the split with the Noldor would have happened? Considering Melkor thought of them as the perfect tool, I think it would have just been something else to fight over. The split occured long before Melkor even came out of prison, Melkor just played it to his advantage. For goodness sakes the royal princes don't seem to like each other. Also the father favours one son over the other 3. That leads to problems.

Well, I finally treated myself to the Silmarillion; I will hopefully be able to follow this thread properly, and eventually will attempt participation

Lacemaker, I look forward to it.

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I thought, that that this particular light was the light before the sun and the moon made by the Valar, untainted. Considering Arda is Marred, I am sure people would appreciate that!! It is special since quite a while later it does help Frodo and Sam.

Thanks for responding, Wilma. Its nice to know that what I write is completely ignored.

I understand that this light is from before the sun and moon, but is it really untainted? Hasn't Arda already been Marred? After all, the Valar have already had massive battles with Melkor before the trees were grown by Yavanna. He had already irrevocably changed the shape of the world, casting down Mountains and the like. And he had already destroyed the first light created by the Valar, casting down the great lamps Illuin, in the north, and Ormal, in the south, that the Valar had raised.

So I ask again, what is so special, so divine even, about the light of the Trees of Valinor?

This is an extremely long post, some of it directly from my ponderings in the old, old Virtual Study Group. questioning the nature of the Light of the Trees and it's a bit rambling. I hesitate to post this, but I guess I may as well. At the very least it should draw some fire from more organised and well-read minds.

I preface by saying that I don't offer this as an interpretation based on any evidence from the text, but simply ruminations and disparate thoughts, specifically I think from a tentative offering by someone else way back when which struck me with great force at the time that perhaps the Light of the trees could be seen as Grace in the Christian sense. Basically, the argument was that to a Christian sensibility, the light of the Trees comes close to being the illumination of Soul by Love.

And then there is the question of the source of the ever-replenishing light that the Trees draw on.

Perhaps the Light can be seen as the manifestation on Arda of an aspect of Eru. This occurred to me because of the nature of the light, which not only has physical presence, but seems to permanently affect those who come into contact with it. For example, when Elwë came upon Melian "out of the darkness he looked at her, and the light of Aman was in her face." Elsewhere in the Silm and LOTR, the elves who had seen the Light and returned to ME are regularly described as having the Light in their eyes--granted that could be a metaphor for enlightenment or wisdom, but I've always read that as a physical difference between the Calaquendi and the other Eldar, for it is immediately discernible.

It puts me strongly in mind of Moses after he sees God's back on Mt Sinai from within the protection of a cleft in the rock. Ex 34:

"And as Moses came down from the mountain bearing the two tablets of the pact Moses was not aware that the skin of his face was radiant since he had spoken with Him . Aaron and all the Israelites saw that the skiin of Moses face was radiant....when Moses finished speaking with them, he put a veil over his face." Now, for me the sense is clearly that the divine glory is overwhelming even when merely reflected. This resonates with the Light of the Trees.

It struck me that the Trees were the creation--or more accurately the realization--of Yavanna, who is the only one of the Ainur described as bringing forth life in Arda in a literal way. The others have been responsible for the realization of elemental things--wind, stars, water, earth & rock--or metaphysical aspects--dreams, sorrow, compassion, exuberance etc. Yavannah brings forth life--the olvar and the kelvar. I put aside Aule's creation of the dwarves, for it seems to me that he did so outside the outlined scheme of the Music albeit Eru ratified his act. So, Yavanna could be seen as midwife, rather than creator of the treees, which is appropriate as she is an earth goddess -- the Light is sprung from the fertility of the earth.

Someone in the VTSG pointed out (and I recall it clearly, as it made sene to me and has affected my reading of the story) that the Two Trees themselves could be seen as symbolic of divine duality: day/night, light/dark, order/chaos, which could be seen either in the pagan or Christian sense.

If the Trees and their Light can be taken for a moment as a manifestation of Eru on Arda then one could say that it was this manifestation which rendered Vallinor the "Blessed Realm", over and above its sanctity as a remnant of Arda Unmarred and the dwelling place of the Ainur. It also makes sense that therefore Melkor would both desire and hate the Light--and the Silmarils also, not just because of their unique beauty, but also because the Light and the Silmarils are a manifestation of what he desires and hates--Godhead.

Tolkien writes "The Light failed; but the Darkness that followed was more than loss of light. In that hour was made a Darkness that seemed not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of light, and it had power to pierce the eye, and to enter heart and mind, and strangle the very will" This is the description of Unlight.

When Melkor leads Ungoliant to the destruction of the trees (yes I know that happens later), he does two things: first he desecrates that manifestation of Godhead by allowing Ungoliant to devour it and transform it to its opposite "an Unlight, in which things seemed to be no more, and which eyes could not pierce, for it was void"

So what Melkor has done here is representative of what he wishes he could do on a larger scale: to vanquish and usurp Eru's place. And Ungoliant, motivated by Melkor's power 'For with my power that I put into thee thy work was accomplished" desires the same. That is to devour the manifestation of godhead in the Light and transform that to herself. To transform day to night, light to dark, order to chaos, life to death.

The second thing that Melkor does is to claim for himself the final remnants of this manifestation of godhead--eventually to place them in his iron crown and become what? Godhead/Eru in his own mind?

I think this perspective on the Light would have a bearing on Fëanor's creation of the Silmarils.

"For Feanor, being come to his full might, was filled with new thought, or it may be that some shadow of foreknowledge came to him of the doom that drew near..."

There is a strong implication that Feanor's urge to capture the light of the Trees in some way, thus ensuring that this light would live on, was intended--that somehow he knew (whence?) that the Trees would be destroyed--that, in fact, he HAD to somehow save the light of the Trees in some way.

Was Feanor in fact the instrument of Eru in this act? That though he came to feel so possessive of the Silmarils, that original impetus came not necessarily from within him? Perhaps he was given 'divine' inspiration to do so? and his fate was dictated by them--and the fate of Arda and of the Valar "air, earth and water" was wrapped by the Silmarils--for how could it be else, if we are actually talking of the destruction and loss of a manifestation of Eru's godhead within Eru's own creation?

Outrageous proposition but it should stimulate some discussion.

I do believe that for Tolkien the image of Moses on Mt Sinai would have had resonance; and I think there is something in the idea of the usurpation and transformation of the symbol of divine creation to its opposite.

Other thoughts:

The three jewels ended up with Earendil (in the air), and in the depths (land and sea). I thought it might be worth mentioning that those are also the elements associated with the Valar: air (Manwe & Varda) land (Aule and Yavanna) and sea (Ulmo)--Melkor is associated with fire. So is there an oblique association made between the fate of the silmarils and the fate of the Valar (these being emblematic of the fate of Arda, as they are its life and it is theirs)?

I think it is worthwhile differentiating between the craft and art of the eldar--a way of describing elven 'magic' (when Galadriel takes Sam and Frodo to the mirror, she tells Sam that this is 'elven magic' though she does not know what mortals mean by that), which is simply a way of harnessing natural forces through empathetic understanding--and industrialisation or progress (or even science in this context) which Tolkien associates with Morgoth (and later with Sauron and Saruman) which may also be a harnessing of natural forces but definitely not empathetically.

Lovely post, Imp, and very much in line with my own thinking.

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Was Feanor in fact the instrument of Eru in this act? That though he came to feel so possessive of the Silmarils, that original impetus came not necessarily from within him? Perhaps he was given 'divine' inspiration to do so? and his fate was dictated by them--and the fate of Arda and of the Valar "air, earth and water" was wrapped by the Silmarils--for how could it be else, if we are actually talking of the destruction and loss of a manifestation of Eru's godhead within Eru's own creation?

Outrageous proposition but it should stimulate some discussion.

Not really such an outrageous proposition at all. Indeed, I don't see how any other conclusion can be reached. I think that Eru's words to Melkor in the Ainulindale are equally applicable here:

"No theme may be played that hat not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined."

And yet (and yet!) none of the Children of Iluvator ever exhibited Free Will so fierce and fiery as Curufinwe, who as Fingolfin says "is called the Spirit of Fire, all too truly?" But as fiercely independent in both thought and action as Feanor was, he was still an easy mark for corruption by Melkor.

"Fiercest burned the new flame of desire for freedom and wider realms in the eager heart of Feanor, and Melkor laughed in his secrecy, for to that mark his lies had been addressed, hating Feanor above all, and lusting ever for the Silmarils."

But did not Melkor's lies themselves have their uttermost source in Eru? Were not both Feanor and Melkor acting as His "instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which [they themselves] hath not imagined"?

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I do believe that for Tolkien the image of Moses on Mt Sinai would have had resonance; and I think there is something in the idea of the usurpation and transformation of the symbol of divine creation to its opposite.

Yes, this is exactly what I was trying to say.

Wonderful post, Impenitent!

Impenitent wrote:

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Was Feanor in fact the instrument of Eru in this act? That though he came to feel so possessive of the Silmarils, that original impetus came not necessarily from within him? Perhaps he was given 'divine' inspiration to do so? and his fate was dictated by them--and the fate of Arda and of the Valar "air, earth and water" was wrapped by the Silmarils--for how could it be else, if we are actually talking of the destruction and loss of a manifestation of Eru's godhead within Eru's own creation?

Outrageous proposition but it should stimulate some discussion.

Not outrageous in the least.

In the TORC M00bies Silmarillion discussion thread, I wrote:


>>>>>Can it be said to be only accidental, a rare genetic configuration if you will, that caused Feanor's life force to be so potent that his mother is consumed by it?
Or we do once again see the hand of design? Does Feanor need to be so strong in order to make the Silmarils? Could an elf with equal technical skill but with less potentency have accomplished it?

Which brings me to the next question: Was the making of the Silmarils ordained, and Feanor merely the vessel by which to achieve it?

You may not agree with me (probably wont) but here is where I am going with this: certain key elements, ie: Melkor and Feanor are predestined, but once the criteria has been met an element of free will is involved. This is clumsy, but bear with me for a second or two ....


Feanor is born with the fiery strength of many, in skill, artistry and intellectual capabilities .... therefore he is set upon a path that will, in all liklihood given his nature, lead to the Silmarils. But not necessarily. He has the inanate ability but what he chooses to do with that ability is left to chance. In other words, the beginning is set. The end is unforseen.<<<<<<

*****

And Varda hallowed the Silmarils. so that thereafter no mortal flesh, nor hands unclean, nor anything of evil might touch them, but it was scorched and withered; and Mandos fortold that the fates of Arda, earth, sea, air and fire, lay locked within them.

And yet Melkor touches them ... not mortal but most definitely with hands unclean and evil ... or perhaps Varda's hallowing only affects lesser beings, those of less power than the Valar.

Impenitent wrote:

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Someone in the VTSG pointed out (and I recall it clearly, as it made sene to me and has affected my reading of the story) that the Two Trees themselves could be seen as symbolic of divine duality: day/night, light/dark, order/chaos, which could be seen either in the pagan or Christian sense.

And the essence, or quintessence, of Manwe/Melkor also? For both sprang from Iluvatar's thought and within the music all things are written, and by Eru, all things are known.

Tolkien, on the Light of the Two Trees, in Letter 131:

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As far as the symbolical or allegorical significance, Light is such a primeval symbol in the nature of the Universe, than it can hardly be analysed. The Light of Valinor (derived from light before any fall) is the light of art undivorced from reason, that sees things both scientifically (or philosophically) and imaginatively (or subcreatively) and says that they are good -- as beautiful. The Light of the Sun (or Moon) is derived from the Trees only after they were sullied by Evil.

In another letter, Tolkien says of the Two Trees ... of the Silmaril (Earendil), which contained the last remnant of the unsullied light of Paradise, given by the Two Trees before their defilement and slaying by Morgoth ...

Can the unsullied light of Paradise contain duality? If I am honest, I have to say that I find it a difficult concept probably because, despite my avowed atheism, I am very much a product of a classic judea/christian upbringing (CofE) and whether I will or no, it tends to colour my perspective. When one has been taught that God is not only omnipotent, omniscient but is also all good and always pure, the more Eastern concept of God as duality (light/dark) while intellectually understandable is less emotionally accepted.

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here an oblique association made between the fate of the silmarils and the fate of the Valar (these being emblematic of the fate of Arda, as they are its life and it is theirs)?

Only if the pure light of the Trees can be considered to be, in part, a representation of the Valar as 'The Powers of the World.' If that were to be so and their quintessence was transmorgrified into the Two Trees, and thereby into the Silmarils.

....I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'oblique'. Unless you mean to say that the Silmarils have only a collateral effect upon the Valar ... an indirect connection that brushes rather than impacts.

Great to see this thread back on track! I promise I'll contruibute soon!