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Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the R

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*Alandriel*
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Posted: Sat 30 Apr , 2005 9:09 pm
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I guess I did like you Alantar and checked amazon UK - nope :( and of course amazon germany does not have it either (but that's no big surprise :roll:).
It sounds really interesting though Voronwe and I hope you can share some of your thoughts regarding the book with us and hopefully Sass too. Amazon sadly can be such a pain sometimes. I just had an order that had been pending since 10 weeks put back by another 10 weeks. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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Sassafras
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 9:41 pm
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I hold, in my hot little hand, a copy of 'Tolkien on Film'.

w00t!

This looks fascinating. It'll be a treat to read some real criticism of the films instead of the usual vapid posturing by the usual slew of film critics, many of whom have never actually read LOTR; and even if they once had, had never considered it beyond a fantasy adventure story.

I think I will begin with the Paxon essay Re-vision: LOTR in print and on screen. She has a section devoted to ' the evolution of Aragorn' which, at first glance, looks intriguing.

Are you up for it, V.?

:)


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The Tennis Ball Kid
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 9:43 pm
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Sassy has it already? No fair! :bawl:

Amazon has been "preparing these items for shipment" for four days now.


:bawl:



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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 9:58 pm
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I sometimes envision them scattering rose petals and muttering charms.

Did you get free shipping, ttbk? I'm dead certain that with that sometimes they sit on things for days just to make sure it's inconvenient for people.

I'm desperately tempted to place an order for that and the Rachmaninov Vespers. . . .

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The Tennis Ball Kid
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 10:50 pm
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Did you get free shipping, ttbk? I'm dead certain that with that sometimes they sit on things for days just to make sure it's inconvenient for people.
Yes, but they usually ship pretty quickly, unless it's a holiday, would people be buying their mother's stuff from Amazon?


It'll get here soon enough I guess...

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Sassafras
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 11:07 pm
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Prim said... I'm desperately tempted to place an order for that and the Rachmaninov Vespers

Oh go on!

Be brave!

You know you want to!

:D

Prim, please order this book. I've only briefly glanced through some of the essays but there's food for thought and besides, it always interesting to read scholarly criticism.

Here's a nice little tidbit to whet your appetite:

Whether or not what Jackson has presented is the heart and spirit of LOTR, the fact that his version appeals to so many people is in an odd way proof of Tolkien's success as a storyteller. Many an exquisitely crafted work of literature withers in libraries unread.
<Are you reading this, Halplm? :D >
The really great tales are those to which each new version adds richness. A story that can survive being told transcends mere literature, and becomes legend.

I like that. I like that a lot. I agree with it too.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Tue 03 May , 2005 11:50 pm
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Sass, the Paxon essay is excellent. I would be more then happy to discuss it with you. :) But it would be nice if some others could join in too. :neutral:


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Primula_Baggins
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 12:51 am
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Well, I'm ordering it tonight.

And I'm telling my husband you guys made me do it. :P

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Sassafras
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Posted: Wed 04 May , 2005 1:05 am
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Mr. Baggins is free to vent his wrath upon my virtual self.

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Cerin
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 5:53 pm
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I now have in my possession a copy of the book. (Didn't take very long, either).

:D


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The Tennis Ball Kid
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 8:13 pm
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My copy has shipped! :banana:



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Sassafras
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 9:49 pm
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:horse:

.
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For what it's worth:

So far I've read two predominantly negative critiques. Anticipation and Flattening and Frodo on Film.

The odd thing is that I find myself agreeing with almost every point made and yet I can't help but feel that by focusing on the parts the transcendent whole has been missed.

I know there are huge problems with both style and content in these films, and yet ... and yet ... in spite of everything, they suceed in touching a chord. They resonate. Some would no doubt say that is because I bring my book knowledge to the viewing ( hello Idylle :D ) and allow it to colour my responses but I'm not so sure. Seems to be that in many ways the films add another layer to my reading of the book and the book does not detract from the films ability to draw me in to Middle Earth and keep me there.


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vison
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Posted: Thu 05 May , 2005 10:48 pm
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I am, as you all undoubtedly know, not a fan of Mr. Jackson's LOTR.

Yet, reading the comments by some of my B77 friends, particularly Voronwe, makes me wonder why I can't just let go and like them.

I can't. I just can't. :( Parts of them I like very much. Parts of them are wonderful. But the parts add up to a very unsatisfactory whole for me, and that makes me sad. I want so much to like the movies.

Voronwe's eloquence and his emotionally charged essays do more to resign me to Jackson than anyone else could. And I say to myself, "Self, if someone like Voronwe can love the movies so much, the failure to like them is yours, not Mr. Jackson's."

Then, of course, my OTHER self pipes up. :devil:

The trouble is, I am not able to regard cinema as the deep and meaningful art form that it must be, according to other people. For me, movies are more or less just movies, with one or two exceptions. Three exceptions, I guess, and LOTR is not one of the three.

So many people see so much attention to detail, so many meaningful moments and gestures and incidents, while I see only the surface. Knowing nothing about the Art of Cinema, the things that impress so many other viewers simply don't impress me: it's made to look easy, I guess. I recognize many wonders in the films, the costumes and sets and the scenery. But it's wasted on me, because it isn't what I wanted. Whatever I hoped for, I didn't get. A beautiful but empty vessel, in my mind.

I'll let Voronwe love the movies for me, too. And I will read these books that you guys are discussing and see if I can be led in out of the wilderness.

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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:05 am
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Sassafras wrote:
For what it's worth:

So far I've read two predominantly negative critiques. Anticipation and Flattening and Frodo on Film.

The odd thing is that I find myself agreeing with almost every point made and yet I can't help but feel that by focusing on the parts the transcendent whole has been missed.
Sassy, the "Anticipation and Flattening Essay" (full name "Mithril Coats and Tin Ears: 'Anticipation' and 'Flattening' in Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings Trilogy), which was written by the book's editor, Janet Brennan Croft, was one of the two essays in the book that I disliked intensely. Croft has a decent grasp of Tolkien, and a valid point of view about the films, but I felt that her purpose to cut down and criticize the films was so obvious that it eliminated any ability to take her arguments seriously. This is exacerbated by a number of highly misleading and downright incorrect statements that she makes about the films.

This sense was made worse by the fact that this essay follows one that is guilty of the same faults only even worse. "Summa Jacksonica: A Reply to Defenses of Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings Films, after St. Thomas Aquinas" by David Bratman, reads like a bad parody of an extended post by a m00bies purist. It is so biased in its approach that no reasonable editor would have included it a compilation meant to be scholarly. It is only because Croft's own opinion matches Bratman's that it was included.

At this point in reading the book, I was about ready to give up, particularly since glancing through the rest of the essays revealed that most of them had a negative take on the films. Fortunately, I perservered, and while I found much to disagree with in some of the rest of the essays, there were no others that I found to be written from an overly and unacceptably biased point of view.

That includes the "Frodo on Film" essay that you mentioned (full title "Frodo on Film: Peter Jackson's Problematic Portrayal"). This essay, written by Daniel Timmons, has the advantage of being written about a specific subject. Timmons approach is pretty straightfoward, and fairly accurate from my point of view. His basic conclusion is one that I agree with:
Quote:
In the end, both Frodos "were meant" to bear the burden and to "find a way" when no one else could. Thus, both the book and the film dramatize the themes of divine designation, pity, mercy, forgiveness, and self-sacrifice in the portrayal of Frodo. The difference -- and it's a significant one -- is that Jackson wants to appeal to a contemporary audience, and so, for the most part, offers a "hero" with whom he thinks "the masses" can relate. On the other hand, Tolkien presents a special character, albeit not a perfect one, whom we can admire and aspire to become. Frodo's doubts, fears, sufferings, and flaws may parallel our own. Yet through steadfast courage, dogged plodding, humility, and faith, we may discover the strength and wisdom to bear our own burdens and to envision our ultimate state of grace: "a far green country under a swift sunrise".
I don't necessarily agree with Timmons on all points regarding the lessening Frodo's character in the films, but I do agree with his basic premise. Unlike Croft (and even more, Bratman) his descriptions of the events and characterizations of the films are mostly fair and balanced. In the end, I felt that made his overall criticism of the films all the more powerful and convincing then theirs.


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Semprini
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 11:58 am
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Vison>>>The trouble is, I am not able to regard cinema as the deep and meaningful art form that it must be, according to other people. For me, movies are more or less just movies, with one or two exceptions. Three exceptions, I guess, and LOTR is not one of the three. So many people see so much attention to detail, so many meaningful moments and gestures and incidents, while I see only the surface. Knowing nothing about the Art of Cinema, the things that impress so many other viewers simply don't impress me: it's made to look easy, I guess. I recognize many wonders in the films, the costumes and sets and the scenery. But it's wasted on me, because it isn't what I wanted. Whatever I hoped for, I didn't get. A beautiful but empty vessel, in my mind.

Dear vison, allow me to answer this. Cinema is an Art that can be as deep as literature or paintings. Cinema is a meaningful Art. I've seen in my life hundreds of films that fufilled me, elevated me, intrigued me, satisfied me as much as a Rembrandt painting or a Balzac novel. The problem you have with PJ's LOTR is not a problem with cinema. It is only a problem with PJ's LOTR. PJ is not a great director and does not master some of the fundamentals of cinema as far as I am concerned (his ROTK is irredeemably flawed and unbalanced as far as narration is concerned with too many aborted scenes). He does not have the grace, the delicacy, the rigor in the narration, this immediate and intuitive understanding of complex eternal themes that is the hallmark of great artists, the maturity, the consistency in greatness, the thematical coherence, which all great directors have. He is a master of the details but not of the whole and I find little transcendency value in his films. He is foremost an entertainer. And I know enough of the Art of cinema to say that there is little that I admire in PJ's film, apart from the special effects and production values, without blushing (PJ's fantastic organization skills and strong will not taken into account).

I apologize in advance to those who disagree with me for these harsh words, but I could not let you blame cinema, vison, whereas there is IMO only PJ to blame. There are thousands of ways to make films. PJ's way is just one way.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 2:41 pm
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Semprini, :hug: Some things are certain ;)

I would dearly love it you were to get your hands on this book, Semprini. I would particularly like to hear your (and Queen B's if she's out there somewhere) opinion about the first essay: "The Threee Ages of Imperial Cinema fromt he Death of Gordon to The Return of the King" by J.E. Smyth.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:03 pm
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Quote:
The difference -- and it's a significant one -- is that Jackson wants to appeal to a contemporary audience, and so, for the most part, offers a "hero" with whom he thinks "the masses" can relate.
Um, I disagree...I'd say PJ's Frodo is a good deal less heroic then the books. PJ gives the hero role entirely to Sam; Frodo's values are presented as something else entirely.


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Voronwë_the_Faithful
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:16 pm
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Yov, you're actually agreeing with the essayist. He uses "hero" in quotes ironically.


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Semprini
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:20 pm
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Voronwe>>>Some things are certain

Yes, they are. :) I have thousands of books to read. I keep buying books without finding the time to read them. Do you know any way for me to read the article on imperial cinema without buying the book? :)

Yovargas>>>I'd say PJ's Frodo is a good deal less heroic then the books. PJ gives the hero role entirely to Sam; Frodo's values are presented as something else entirely.

I entirely agree. This is also very much due to the way Wood interprets and "victimizes" Frodo instead of giving him the superior wisdom and the will of steel that book-Frodo has.


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yovargas
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Posted: Fri 06 May , 2005 3:26 pm
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Voronwe_the_Faithful wrote:
Yov, you're actually agreeing with the essayist. He uses "hero" in quotes ironically.
:scratch So they weren't saying that PJ's take on Frodo was an attempt to provide a mass appeal hero? Cuz that seems to be exactly what they say :scratch


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