board77

The Last Homely Site on the Web

Tolkien on Film: Essays on Peter Jackson's the Lord of the R

Post Reply   Page 4 of 5  [ 85 posts ]
Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 5 »
Author Message
Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 12:05 pm
Frodo's girl through and through
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 10:08 pm
Location: The Shire
 
Semprini wrote:
I myself have some issues with Moria similar to some of Ms. Croft article's, but I think that PJ did overall a good job with Moria. My biggest issue concerning dark tunnels in PJ's film is with Shelob's lair and the POTD where PJ did not make the right stylistical choices IMO (in particular, Shelob's lair should have been pitch black, and POTD should not have been a horror film parody). Hitchcock's directing either of these sequences would have been fabulous.
And I'm imagining Hitchcock filming the stairs of Cirith Ungol :) ... when Sam, alone in the Orc Tower, goes searching for Frodo. Darkness, silence, bloody corpses everywhere, and then a blood-curdling shriek from the Tower above ... Gives me chills to think about it!

I dislike the Paths of the Dead in the EE, I'm afraid. It's bearable in the TE, but the EE ... :nono: That skull avalanche. Sheeeeeeeeesh. Such a bad choice, stylistically, in the very last part of the trilogy. This is Tolkien, PJ, not Indiana Jones ...

I do love Moria though. One of the best sequences in the entire film trilogy. And the Balrog is superb, as are the Fellowship's reactions.

_________________

"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246

Avatar by elanordh on Live Journal


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 12:19 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
Ah, but Indiana Jones is much better than PJ's POTD Di! :)


Top
Profile Quote
Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 12:28 pm
Frodo's girl through and through
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 10:08 pm
Location: The Shire
 
Considers Semprini's point.

Worth disputing?

Nah. :D

:archer:

_________________

"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246

Avatar by elanordh on Live Journal


Top
Profile Quote
The Tennis Ball Kid
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 1:34 pm
Seeking Wimbledon
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 2225
Joined: Sat 12 Mar , 2005 7:37 pm
Location: The East of East, Fighting Wild Were-worms in The Last Desert
Contact: Website
 
Quote:
Ah, but Indiana Jones is much better than PJ's POTD Di!
Hmm.


[ img ]


[ img ]


Agreed. :D



ttbk

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Di of Long Cleeve
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 1:42 pm
Frodo's girl through and through
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 989
Joined: Sun 06 Mar , 2005 10:08 pm
Location: The Shire
 
Actually ... I disagree. :D

Thing is, I think the PotD would have been damn cool in any other film except LOTR ... if that makes sense. ;)

(I enjoy the Indiana Jones films enormously, of course).

_________________

"Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could ... " Letter no. 246

Avatar by elanordh on Live Journal


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 1:50 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
Di>>>Thing is, I think the PotD would have been damn cool in any other film except LOTR ... if that makes sense.


It makes sense. :)

As for me, I found POTD to be damn silly in LOTR and I am pretty sure I would have found it even sillier in another film. I do not recall Harrison Ford trying, à la Gimli, to blow on ghosts to repel them in an Indy film. :)

Thanks ttbk for reminding me how silly looking Aragorn is in that scene! It really looks like a scene from Monty Python's Holy Grail. Where is John Cleese when you need him? He would have been great as Aragorn. Actually, picture that: Cleese as Aragorn, Eric Idle as Legolas and Michael Palin as Gimli: the perfect cast! :)

Last edited by Semprini on Tue 10 May , 2005 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 1:58 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
It would be appropriate to Indiana Jones, which is not at all a "serious" story—there is nothing to be let down from, no lofty themes to be deflated. It was inappropriate to the story of Return of the King.

Still, in my view comparing those two films is like comparing a beautifully executed double axel (in ice skating) with a quadruple axel with a wobbly landing. The execution was less perfect, but that is partly because so much more was attempted.

We can certainly criticize the judgment of the second skater, and argue that another skater would have been able to execute the difficult move better, but I don't think we can compare the "value" of the two performances except in terms of the pleasure they gave us. A skilled skating judge would doubtless prefer the first. A skating fan who likes flash and dash and guts would probably prefer the second.

And why on Earth am I talking about ice skating? When I get on skates I fall down. :P

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:05 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
Actually, I think that it is a very appropriate comparison Primula. Yes, more was attempted by PJ in LOTR. But if we were all to be judged based on our intents and attempts, I suspect that life would be easier for all of us.

I go with the double axel perfectly executed, ie, perfectly in control, and graceful.


Top
Profile Quote
Queen_Beruthiel
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:13 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu 10 Mar , 2005 12:35 pm
 
Well, if you are saying that ROTK was beautifully executed but for the POTD, and Indy was poorly executed.... then NO.

The Jackson trilogy has many poorly executed scenes for the type of film it aspires to be (epic).

RotLA is perfectly executed for what it is (light-hearted adventure).

IMO of course, and I could have misunderstood you.

Anyway, we were talking tension. PJ isn't very good at it: not just Moria (he changed it to a prolonged action sequence: a reasonable exchange), but also POTD and Shelob. I have only ever seen one tense scene in any of his films: in Heavenly Creatures.

Any more info on this "imperial cinema" stuff? Sounds interesting.


Top
Profile Quote
Primula_Baggins
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:18 pm
Living in hope
Offline
 
Posts: 7291
Joined: Sat 29 Jan , 2005 5:54 pm
Location: Sailing the luminiferous aether
 
Well, I am not judging the value of the LotR films based on PJ's intentions or what he was attempting. I am the skating fan, not the skating judge. :D I very much enjoy almost all of the performance, probably in part because I can't see the finer technical flaws (and I am fond enough of the story to get past the ones so large even I can see them).

Edit: Q_B, if you're addressing me, that isn't what I was saying. Raiders is a marvelous film and I enjoy it tremendously. PotD is far from the only problem with RotK. Yet I love RotK and merely enjoy Raiders. Go figure.

_________________

[ img ]


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:22 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
Tension is indeed not something PJ does very well, Helm's Deep being a notable exception though. Spielberg's much better at it. Concerning Raiders of The Lost Ark, I agree with QB that it is a perfectly executed film (I assumed QB that your post was addressed at Primula, right?:) ). A better film IMO than PJ's LOTR. It has no lofty theme, of course, but from an internal consistency point of view, it is a "serious" film: it maintains a completely consistent point of view throughout. You believe in the secondary world created by Spielberg.

Semprini, Skating judge


Top
Profile Quote
yovargas
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:33 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 14774
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 12:11 pm
 
I'd say there are several very tense scenesin FOTR with the Nazgul and in Moria. And the tension pre-Helm's Deep is astonishing. And every single time I saw ROTK, there were audible gasps coming from all over the audience during the scene of Shelob stalking Frodo right before she stings him - that scene is really tense and audience reaction proves it!


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:44 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
Granted, there are some tense moments in Moria and in Shelob's lair. However, in Moria, I think that the crumbling bridge lessened the tension. And as for Shelob's lair, it is far from being as tense and frightening as it should have been. PJ showed too much, too fast. And the end of the scene is spoiled by this endless extreme close-up on Frodo when he has just been stung by Shelob: I found Wood's grimace over-the-top as if he was playing someone drunk ready to throw up. Damn it, when one plays Frodo, one must show some restraint, some dignity and some strength! :)


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 2:44 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5171
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
POTD in the EE is, in my opinion, one of the best examples of the hit or miss quality of PJ's films. Both Viggo and :Q Orlando have some very nice acting moments in this sequence. But Gimli's antics and the ridiculous skull avalanche are horrible. One of the view sequences in the films where the negatives outweight the positives for me.

I'll comment on the Imperial Cinema essay later today when I have some time.


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:05 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
I thought of another and subtly tense scene: in FOTR EE, when all the members of the fellowship look silently in turn at Frodo as if out of resent, when they seem not be to able to enter in Lorien. It is a quick but remarkable scene. So PJ may not be very good at tense scenes, but he is sometimes not bad at it either. I guess it is the hit and miss syndrome mentioned by Voronwe.


Top
Profile Quote
yovargas
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:19 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 14774
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 12:11 pm
 
I don't think it's so much that he's not good at it - when he goes for tense he definately nails it - so much as that he doesn't seem to be looking for tense all the time. You say the crumbling bridge broke the tension, but that's not indicative of him being bad at tension but of him going for something else in that moment. It's a stylistic choice to go for a different mood, not an inability to capture the mood you're expecting. Sometimes the stylistic choice works (I think the crumbling stair builds well as part of that sequence) sometimes it flops (uh, 80% of POTD).


Top
Profile Quote
Semprini
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:40 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed 23 Feb , 2005 4:54 pm
 
You know I think that "stylistic choices" and "ability" may very well be different words for the same thing. The director who has the ability to do something well, will intuitively make the right stylistical choices, whereas the lesser director will make choices that ultimately do not allow him to entirely fulfill his initial intent or the film needs. In Shelob's lair, PJ goes for tense, and he does not really nail it precisely because of his stylistical choices (eg, there is too much light)

Concerning the crumbling stair, could you identify for me this "something else" that PJ looked for to which you refer to? I would be surprised if he did not include this scene to up the ante, ie, to increase the tension. There is much probability that he and WETA tried to come up with another obstacle for the fellowship before they reach Khazad-Dum in order to make Moria the big action piece of the film. And I think that in this context, the crumbling bridge scene does not work very well, especially at the end, when the bridge is moving, where it becomes repetitive. It supersedes a previous danger with a lesser one (heroes never fall from cliche crumbling bridges in films) and it sort of stops the movement of the action at this point of the sequence. Finally, it includes a silly Gimli gag (the beard!) that lightens the mood. All of this lessens the tension IMO.

If, on the other hand, PJ included the crumbling bridge to lighten the mood a bit (the something else you referred to? :) ), which I doubt, then I do not think he made the right choice: the tension should have been maintained throughout either at the same level of intensity or at an increased level.

I should stop here, I have some work to do and I do not want to further derail Voronwe's thread.


Top
Profile Quote
yovargas
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 3:54 pm
User avatar
Offline
 
Posts: 14774
Joined: Thu 24 Feb , 2005 12:11 pm
 
(Briefly). Obviously he wouldn't have Gimli cracking jokes if tension was his #1 concern at this point.


Top
Profile Quote
Queen_Beruthiel
Post subject:
Posted: Tue 10 May , 2005 5:27 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Thu 10 Mar , 2005 12:35 pm
 
I should have used quotes to show that I was addressing Primula but was dashing - apologies.

Well, I've said everything I have to say about PJ and tension.


Top
Profile Quote
Voronwë_the_Faithful
Post subject:
Posted: Mon 25 Jul , 2005 4:33 pm
Offline
 
Posts: 5171
Joined: Thu 10 Feb , 2005 6:53 pm
Contact: Website
 
Bumped since the person that brought this book to my attention just arrived here. :D


Top
Profile Quote
Display: Sort by: Direction:
Post Reply   Page 4 of 5  [ 85 posts ]
Return to “Made in Dale: Hobbies and Entertainment” | Jump to page « 1 2 3 4 5 »
Jump to: